Објављено на Швајцарска Форум
Is it just me or is it really hard to find some people in Switzerland who are willing to make good friends with you (especially to foreigners)??
I've been there for only 6 months and I heard you need at least 3 months to completely settle down there so maybe I've been there just too short...what do you think?
Уклоњен корисник
Swiss racism is to blame for everything
објавио/-ла је Jim Jackson у Швајцарска Форум
Dear Karim,
I really thank you for taking the time to participate in this forum. I fully agree with you and I should add that the higher percentage of prisoners beeing foreigners is to be blamed on racism and undjust swiss system. Of course you will steel if you can not get a job. of course you become violent if you are always treated as low life human beeing. The swiss blame everything on foreigners. The swiss are very sad people, in fact the sadeset I have ever seen and in my opinion they need lots of foreigners to get them out of their misery. look what happened in switzerland during the soccer world cup , foreigners are celebarting , enjoying, BBQ ..etc.while the swiss are complaining as usual about the foreigners making lots of noise!!
The swiss will always complain, no matter what. They are really sad people and they hate anybody that is happy.
I hated switzerland and it's people , I regret I lived there and do not advise anybody to go there unless they really have too.
a question for roger
објавио/-ла је canuck s у Швајцарска Форум
Btw, do you happen to know of a publication that exists to explain the swiss system to foreigners? I heard (after almost 2 years) of one floating around, but the Gemeinde had no clue what I was talking about, and couldn't provide me with any assistance. I have to admit I was totally dissapointed by the lack of the Gemeinde's capability (or interest) in assisting with a successful integration, although thats in their laws. I was just shocked because in Canada we have an immigration and settlement büro where immigrants go to get the low down on everything. Learn english (for free) get an ID, get free health care set up, find housing, subsidized transportation, find a job, basically everything you would need to establish a basis. No one told me squat when I came here, nevermind assisting me with understanding how the system works or help with getting set up. Just left to flounder. And I think that's one of the issues with the integration issue, not enough is being done to assist immigrants (not just refugees) in become a successful member of swiss society. The migrationsamt was equally as useless. I hope this will change. Or maybe, like I mentioned earlier I just got the bunk end of the deal coz I live in Aargau, and not Zürich or Genf.
@ Roger
објавио/-ла је canuck s у Швајцарска Форум
since we are digressing into the topic of over representation of minorities in the penal system and criminal justice in general, i thought i would add my two cents. Over representation happens pretty much everywhere. In Canada it's blacks on the east coast, aboriginal on the west coast. Just like here in Switzerland, cops are more liable to take out a Balkan driving a M3 than a Swiss guy in a Golf. My Swiss male friends laugh about how they can get away with almost everything on the road because the cops rarely pull them over. My hubby, who drives a M3 did get pulled over once, just based on the car model, but once the cop saw he was swiss, he didn't even complete the inspection and let him go.
But anyways, about the criminal justice system. I'm not sure what the Swiss law is on murder, but in Canada, even if you do get released on the faint hope clause after 15 years (coz "life" in prison terms usually means 25 years) they are still a "Lifer" until the day they die. This means that even though they have been released from prison they are still serving a life sentence, reporting to a parole officer and dealing with the stigma of being a murderer. When people talk about the penal system being too lash, where inmates get food and their basic needs met in prison, people are missing the point. It's freedom that is being withdrawn, that IS the punishment. Loss of freedom. There will always be a huge debate on which criminal justice system is the most effective and the most efficient, and the debate on capital punishment, etc etc etc. The bottom line is, no matter the punishment whether loss of freedom or death will ever prove to be a fool proof deterrent. When capital punishment existed, did that stop people from murdering other people? No.
Additionally, having worked with many lifers in my past job in Canada, i know that being in the community as a lifer isnt all it's cracked up to be. These people deal with the stigma on a daily basis, and that's just as tough, as say, dealing with the stigma of being a foreigner.
But that it totally digressing from the point of this thread. No system is perfect, just like no person is perfect. Everyone makes mistakes whether foreigner or native. People are much too easily swayed and prone to manipulation by propaganda (fueled by fear as you mentioned earlier). After all, we ALL want the world to be a better place to live. It's just the method that people use leaves victimes in it's wake. And that's tragic for people who are TRYING to integrate, but are hindered by (insert all the problems previously discussed).
And while learning the language certainly helps, it isn't the cure all. I know this as a fact because everyone tells me how amazed they are at my German after being here only 2 years. But I'm still met with resistance. Still, I persist, because I know there are exceptions here and I'm intent on finding them. At least until such time I decide to return to my country, where I won't have to fight that battle anymore. :)
of course part of the problem are the authorities
објавио/-ла је Roger B у Швајцарска Форум
Yeah, well, given the unabating wave of immigrants from Germany and France, I don't think the story has ended yet. We'll see how it all ends, but I guess that in the end, their children will naturalize quite easily.
It's true that one of the most devoted voter base of the SVP/UDC are "Secondos", albeit I would say they're voting that way out of different reasons than you've indicated. I'd some of them vote the way they do because they have to prove something. What is surprising to me is that they appear to flock to the extremes far more than to the middle, at least that's what I can observes from my secondo friends. Either the guys vote SVP/UDC or they vote SP/PS, but none of them even would consider voting FDP/PLR or CVP/PDC.
Well, you actually hit the nail on its head when it comes to Swiss legal/judicial authority. The blame in my opinion goes to our judicial system which sometimes appears to take a very cozy route to interpreting criminal law. Why in hell is it possible for a convicted murderer to walk away for his crime after 15 years in prison? The problem is that our current laws are in a way too humanist, in a way not enough coercive to really deter people from commiting crimes. I'm not happy with the US penal code, but where the US is too excessive, our system is far too nice to criminals. That, by the way is also the reason why I will vote in big bold letters NO to the extradition initiative. Instead of talking about extradition of criminal foreigners in Switzerland, we'd do better starting overhauling our penal code so that a punishment really is a punishment, be the fellon Swiss or foreign, and not just a state-paid vacation in a low star hotel, ending, in extremis, after 15 years. I would even go the length of claiming that this would make a much greater contribution of lowering crime.
However, one thing in addition of why foreigners are relatively over-represented in our jails. Well, comming back to an anology to the US, it could be the same reason why blacks are over-represent in US-jails. It just points to a lack of perspective and integration of certain kinds of foreign population (which mostly hail from the Balkans, I'm force to say). So while our system needs certain overhauling in terms of coercive power, the preponderance of certain foreigners in our jails tells me that we also have to takle the integration question urgently.
The authorities have to be blamed for their inaction
објавио/-ла је Уклоњен корисник у Швајцарска Форум
Roger, you mentioned in your post “the long history of immigration and openness” it was true in the past but not anymore!
Regarding the “secondos” as you mentioned them, I was surprised that some of them are even more extreme in their racism than some local people, especially for those who became Swiss citizens! They will say: “when our parents first arrived to Switzerland they suffered from racism and discrimination and they had to work hard with no say, in the mean time why should-it be easier for new comers, they have to endure what we and our parents endured in the past!!!”.
Regarding the higher percentage of foreign criminals in the Swiss jails (in this case you have used the same arguments as UDC/SVP), I would like to say that many of them are illegal immigrants, or they just came to Switzerland to commit their crimes... Is this the fault of all the foreign residents? Isn't it the Swiss authorities who have to be blamed insufficient action against the rising crime and insecurity? Many organized crime is caused by drug trafficking, why the authorities aren't taking strong action against this phenomenon? Why is it so easy for illegal immigrants to come and stay in the country? A few weeks ago more than half of the workers on a construction site belonging to “SUVA” were caught by the police, 2 of them where forbidden form entering the Swiss territory!
half the country?
објавио/-ла је Roger B у Швајцарска Форум
Sorry, but saying that 50% of the Swiss are "known to be racist" strikes me as a very extravagant position. I know you cited a study, but how did Benjamin Disraeli say "there are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies and statistics". One statistic says A the other says B, again I'm not saying there is no racism, I'm far from that, but accusing half the population to be racist and xenophobic based on one study you trust, well, that's a toughie...
Look, our conversation currently centers around one of those epic debates in public choice. Your take on it, at least that's what I derive from your statement, so please feel free to correct me, is that campaigns as the one from SVP/UDC should be banned if they go too far on certain topics... my take on it is that freedom of speech is also valid for the ignorant. I think the risk of shutting right wingers' mouths by banning their campaigns out of subjective judgments (which in the end they are), would pose a greater risk to our society as a whole then letting them speak. Look, what I constantly remind myself of is that it is neither always very pleasant nor easy to live in a liberal democracy guaranteeing certain inalienable rights, rights that accrue to the incinarating and ignorant too. That's a point valid for both right and left, requiring if not tolerance so at least acceptance of the others rights. There are certain things that clearly go too far, if for instance there is a call for violence on a certain group, or where there are attempts to use direct democracy to chip away at certain rights (as has happened with the anti-minaret thing). Under this circumstance the state should act through its coercive means and courts. It's a free country, so what I do is talking, debating and launching comprehensive challenges to the right wingers instead of appealing to court and state.
The truth is, people are nervous, they hear talk about imminent doom, about how many challenges face Switzerland. They witnessed the pressure excerted by the EU and the US on Switzerland. In short, thereare problems associated to our foreing relations and immigration. Ridiculing these anxieties, not taking them seriously is exactly the thing that brought us into the situation in the first place. What do you think is the feeling of an accountant that first gets a German boss who then swiftly appoints fellow country men to any position vacating in the next monts? I've witnessed that several times, and it's hard to believe that there are no able Swiss wanting to do those kinds of jobs. Or what about Universities attracting a flood of German students, costing 500 MCHF a year with the tab being picked up not by any kind of European clearing house (of which I'd be a great fan by the way) but entirely by the cantons? Why is juvenile criminality on the rise, why are foreigners far more significantly present among the criminals? The truth is there are issues surrounding immigration, there are pressure points, there probably will always be, but not addressing them or even ridiculing them will only play in the hands of those who want to exploit it.
What we need is not political correctness, but to address those issues heads on. We need to do something about those pressure points, lest the right wing will gain ever more importance. The right wing was succesfull to exploit those fears, fears that do exist and I would say not even illegitimately. The mainstream parties where just too insensitive to hear that there were dark clouds forming, only now to engage in something similar to rearguard action.
As stated now time after time, post after post, the Swiss are a reserved people, cherrishing privacy but fiercly proud of the "special case" Switzerland (we might not brag about that but it's the way it is, that's also why we don't like to be ridiculed btw) however, saying that generally speaking foreigneres were not welcome in our country is betrayed by our long history of immigration and openness, the success stories of "secondos" living in Switzerland and the general fact that 20-30% of our population is foreign born. While the latter may cause some of the anxiety, I would say that the persistant high level of foreign born population and level of immigration should serve as a reminder that Switzerland, while not being the paradise on earth, still is very welcoming to foreigners and offers lots of advantages. And, while I am of the strong conviction that the pressure points require a comprehensive solution, I will fight the right wingers and their agenda wherever possible.
Free democracy promoting racist and xenophobic campains aginst foreigners
објавио/-ла је Уклоњен корисник у Швајцарска Форум
The liberty of expression should stop when it tends to denigrate the existence of others!!! Look, in a country in which more than half of the citizens are known to be racist an xenophobic, letting some party’s like SVP/UDC, MCG (in Geneva) to promote their racism and xenophobic ideology, make's the entire democratic system responsible of the resulting consequences.
Acknowledging the existence of racism, xenophobia and discrimination is in my eyes not enough, strong action should be taken to fight it! Justifying the phenomenon by economic reasons, by the misbehaviour of some immigrants and using the direct democracy as undercover, will even cause more racism and intolerance!
The most hypocritical matter is that Switzerland is known for its human rights engagement all over the world, yet it's very timid in fighting racism and xenophobia within it's boundaries.
One thing is sure, the image of Switzerland is suffering internationally and will continue to be, considering the growing racism and xenophobia which is promoted by the so called and sacred “direct democracy”.
As for the question asked in this forum I will say: Yes it's indeed difficult to make friends in Switzerland, beside that and generally speaking foreigners are not really welcome in Switzerland!
I understand but it's a free democracy
објавио/-ла је Roger B у Швајцарска Форум
Look, I understand that things like the above links don't make it easy to feel welcome. However, speaking of limits to freedom of speach, that's a darn thin concept you are drawing up with regards to human dignity. It's not really objective and therefore you can easily ban things out of the wrong reasons. See, I'm surely not happy about these ads, but still I prefer to live in a country where it is possible to make such ads than in a country where everyone has to constantly remain politically correct and all statements have to be neatly checked before publishing. At least some parties show their true face in that way (although the first and last of your links actually are published by some "committees", but no one has to ask who's behind it) and can thus be attacked on.
And looking at it from a legal point of view, anyone may file a complaint about those ads as defamating, because as you sure know, there is an anti-defamation law clearly stating where provocation ends and racism begins. And have a little more confidence in the good people of Switzerland. They are used to campaigns like that and I don't think that people really are convinced by that (most have made up their mind before that). It's an attempt to create a fuss, to force others into petty discussions about the ad instead of the topic enabling the people behind the ad to show themselves off as victims of left-wing media-bias and threatened in their freedom of speech.
Difficult to integrate with this kind of campains
објавио/-ла је Уклоњен корисник у Швајцарска Форум
http://www.balairatt.ch/
http://initiative-pour-le-renvoi.ch/
http://criminels-non.ch/
These campaigns are the shame of Switzerland and I am sorry to be so direct. Those kind of low level brainwashing wont help people to accept each other and to open their mind. The limits of direct democracy and freedom of speech are reached when the dignity of human beings is directly attacked!!! This will harm the image of foreigners more and more, and the most alarming thing is that more and more people vote for this kind of scrap!
back with respect
објавио/-ла је Roger B у Швајцарска Форум
I understand your point and it is a valid one. As mentioned in my reply, there is racism, it is a reality and shows itself in many facets. The thing I tried to throw into the discussion is that this is not a unique Swiss phenomenon.
I don't think the Swiss are more racist than say the Germans and French (judged from the discussions I had personally and from what you can observe in the media). But then again, while this is a regretful phenomenon, this is a weak argument to defend my fellow citizens.
Considering the hidden part (again something you'll probably encounter all over the place all over the world), I think that's mostly the botched result of political correctnes. You are not allowed to speak your mind in certain topics, leading a thing to boil up until it explodes into something like the anti-minaret thing.
The same attitude also led integration problems be neglected until a xenophobic party like the SVP/UDC could take advantage of it (nevermind they did not really do anything against the problems, since that would mean robbing them of arguments).
That foreigners are blamed for many problems, well it's sad but true. Successfull integration is a two-ways street, the foreigner having a wish to integrate and the Swiss to accept his integration. On both ends we have a problem. First, in certain areas a paralel society has been drawn up (location and concentration) and second, the Swiss (as your firemen) have completely redrawn from the process. There are stories of smart, well integrated youth with Balkan background not finding a job (they're not examined properly), of course there are also stories to the other end, but still it tells me that a greater effort needs to be made from our side to integrate them, lest we don't get a situation like in France (for instance anonymous job applications with the federal and state goverments would be a solution).
It's a long list of things that aren't good, but still again here, that's something you can find too often in all over Europe these days. I understand too, that foreign-born people in Switzerland are very irretated by all the talk of job-robbing, university-degrading and salary-dumping. I can feel that from my talks with German and French collegues.
For my part I try to change something about this in politics. I'm a proud Swiss and I hate to see what some of these right-wing fear-mongers are trying to make out of it. But still I am a Swiss, I'm proud of my country so forgive me if I try to defend it nonetheless.